In The News
from CNN
Transcript
ANDERSON COOPER: Joining us now, a career diplomat in every way, Nicholas Burns has served as Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, Ambassador to NATO, and before that, Greece. He's currently at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. And we should note he's an outside adviser to the Biden campaign.
Ambassador Burns, when you hear that the Secretary of State was on the phone call with Ukrainian President and - and President Trump, and has thus far kept quiet, I'm wondering is that appropriate?
NICHOLAS BURNS, FORMER U.S. UNDER SECRETARY FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Well I think it's a little bit unusual, at least in my experience, Anderson, for the Secretary of State to be listening in on a Presidential phone call.
It's just too time-consuming. There's lots of calls. And usually, the Secretary can get an instant readout from the White House Situation Room or the NSC's, National Security Council's, staffer on the call.
I can't explain why the Secretary was on the call. But I do think this. There's a crisis brewing in the State Department.
And Secretary Pompeo now needs to lead his men and women, because the firing of Masha Yovanovitch by President Trump, he - President Trump's repudiation of her, this is our American Ambassador to Ukraine, on the July 25th phone call with President Zelensky, the comments that Donald Trump Jr. and Rudy Giuliani made to vilify our Ambassador, and then the President's comments last week to the American diplomats at The U.S. Mission to the U.N., when he said that those people who helped the whistleblower were spies, and we know how to deal with spies, I mean it cascades down the ranks of the State Department.
I can tell you that morale is plummeted. And I - I respect Secretary Pompeo in many ways. I disagree with him on the issues.
It's time for him to stand up and protect the men and women of the State Department from this vilification campaign being run out of the Oval Office against our career officers. It's shameful behavior.
And, Anderson, there is no antecedent in American history when the President has done so much damage to our State Department, and our Foreign Services.
COOPER: Is it appropriate for the Secretary of State, who is the Head of the State Department, as you said, represents the men and women, the for - career Foreign Service Officers, and others, who work for the State Department, to have knowledge of the President having this sort of off-the-books, you know, program with Rudy Giuliani, going around in Ukraine, trying to get the Ukrainians to, you know, investigate the Bidens, invest - you know, investigate this phony conspiracy theory that the President knew isn't true, or at least had been told repeatedly that there was no validity to it about the Ukrainians being actually behind hacking, and having the servers.
I mean is that appropriate that the Secretary of State would have that knowledge, given the fact that that runs counter to the instruments of government, which he himself oversees?
BURNS: Well the Secretary of State is the nation's Chief Diplomat.
And if Rudy - Rudy Giuliani had effectively hijacked our policy towards Ukraine, and had taken it over, and seems to be the most active American, and he's not even a government official, dealing with the President of Ukraine, and his staff, on one issue, "Go after Vice President Biden and his son," if that was the case, then of course the Secretary of State should have known about it, and of course should have done something about it.
And because it was wrong of both, President Trump and Rudy Giuliani, to ask the President of Ukraine to investigate a former - a distinguished former Vice President of the United States, the main political rival of President Trump. That was wrong.
It was an abuse of the President's power. And the Secretary of State should have shut that down, and should have taken over the real policy towards Ukraine, which is to defend Ukraine, at least to give it the $391 million worth of military assistance, so they could fend off Vladimir Putin.
That was the real American interest. But the most surprising thing that came out of the phone call between the President and Zelensky, the President never mentioned that.
The President never mentioned the American interest, which was to contain Putin. All the President cared about was his personal interest to go after Joe Biden.
So, of course, the State Department, the Secretary of State should have stepped in, and stopped Rudy Giuliani.
COOPER: So, when you hear defenders of the President say on television repeatedly, "Well, you know, the - the President has every right to be concerned about corruption in Ukraine, and he was talking about corruption in Ukraine, and that there's nothing wrong with him, you know, pushing the President on - of Ukraine on that," is - is there any explanation that that supports that?
Because, from my understanding, there's probably a lot of reasons - like current acts of corruption that could be focused on, and I'm sure the President has access to intelligence about ongoing corruption in a country like Ukraine, or anywhere else, but he's talking very specifically about his political opponent.
BURNS: It just doesn't - it just doesn't hold water. This President has not been concerned with corruption in Saudi Arabia, Mohammad Bin Salman, or in Turkey, President Erdogan, or in Russia, President Putin. He doesn't speak out against corruption.
It's very clear. And if you look at the lead New York Times story in the Sunday edition, it's just chapter and verse, for the last nine months, President Trump and Rudy Giuliani have been interested in one thing, "Go after the Bidens."
[21:20:00] "Do us a favor," said President Trump to President Zelensky, "Go after the Bidens." That's not the American national interest.
And if the President is singularly putting forward his own political interest, for 2020, ahead of our national interest, and what's more important than containing Russian power in Eastern Europe, then the President has abused the power of his office.
And Rudy Giuliani is this, you know, agent, this agent who - who's roaming throughout American foreign policy on that one question. It wasn't about corruption in Ukraine. It was about going after the Bidens.
COOPER: Also, I mean the - correct me if I'm wrong. Secretary Pompeo has sworn an oath to the Constitution.
Rudy Giuliani as for - I mean I don't know what last time he, you know, put his hand on a Bible, and swore an oath to - to defend the United States, but he is representing the interests of Donald Trump, not the American interest. That's not an oath he has taken in this regard.
BURNS: But - I don't know if he has a security clearance, Rudy Giuliani. I don't think he should be the most active American citizen talking to the President of Ukraine. President Trump should be, and Secretary Pompeo should be.
And look, Anderson, I want to say, I think Secretary Pompeo is an honorable person. He has served his country well. This is a decisive time for him, as Secretary of State, in my judgment.
There's only one thing he can do this week and next. Stand up publicly and defend the non-partisan role that our career diplomats have always played in our system, and have to - played.
And, right now, the Trump Administration is targeting the State Department, reducing this - the bud - trying to reduce the budget of the State Department.
And, as you know, just in the last 24 hours, we've learned that 150 currently-serving State Department and retired officers are now being said that they had - they were involved in security violations on the Clinton email problem, going back to 2011, '12 and '13.
If you're in the State Department, and you have all this incoming barrage, from the President, and the White House, I think you'd feel paranoid too that the Commander-in-Chief is not leading the men and women of the State Department. That's what Mike Pompeo has to stand up against.
COOPER: Ambassador Nicholas Burns, I appreciate your time, thank you.
BURNS: Thank you.